JMguitars
New member
extracted from: Tonewoods Scarce? What are you hearing? - Page 4 - The Gear Page
I too, come in peace,
To quote an earlier post. I mean no critisism for my esteemed fellow builders. None whatsoever. Please remember that whilst you read, or type your responce. My fellow builders are my comrades-in-arrms. Some of them may well have different views than I am about to express. My post is for information only, altho I will, inevitably leave no doubt as to where I stand.
But I will also ask any truly interested party to investigate exactly as I have, and to file a report with us here. Please note that, and read on. There's a long post ahead. I will be amazed if anyone can wade thru it!
I really had to think about participating in this thread. I have a bit of a history regarding this subject...and the last time that I addressed it..year 2000 or therabouts.....I experienced "flaming" such as is hard to believe.
My life was threatened. I was a "troller who should be killed" It got worse. Three individuals outlined exactly how they thought I should be murdered. These were phone messages. The negative emails were not as notable.
All in the name of my favorite wood...Brazilian Rosewood.
From the mid 1990's thru the early 2000's, I lost NUMEROUS sales due to the fact that I would not consider using BRW....to me it was easy...BRW had been an "Endangered Species" for years; so, I assumed that I was not "supposed" to use it. But maybe once every 4-6 weeks, one wood supplier or another would email or call, saying "hey, I have great BRW, do you want to buy some?"
I would always answer somewhat along the lines of "Thanks so much for calling/emailing, but I understand that BRW is on the Endangered Species list, so, I should not be using it...right?" I never recieved a convincing reply.
At that time.... not one of those wood brokers would supply me with photostats of the importation documentation that I could send to US Fish and Wildlife Service for verification. Nothing on thier letterhead stating that the wood was harvested and imported in an unmistakably lawful way. Nothing on their letterhead saying how old the wood was, etc. Nothing.
I wonder if that has changed. Maybe one of the builders could scan and post a recent example of such a statement? Maybe, one of you will have better luck.
But finally, I got so sick of saying "NO" to folks...after all, this BRW wood was in demand, and here I was refusing to use it...based upon my really limited knowledge. I was losing a notable number of sales by saying "no". It was BAD BUSINESS PRACTISE to keep saying "no" without true information from THE source.... an answer from those who know...the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, main office, Washington D.C.
Getting the number for F&W in DC was easy. I called it, and as I recall, I was put-on-hold quite a few times until I had waded-my-way to the utmost responsible party...the person closest to the BRW situation that our government has to offer (at least at that time).
If you phone US F&W regarding the staus of BRW, please ask to speak with the person that is regarded as being "most expert" on that subject...otherwise, you may get easy answers, "the company line" etc etc....get The Expert!
The person that I eventually spoke to was, simply, great. Prior to posting this, I endeavored to find my old notes on the subject, but to no avail. Thus, I cannot give you all the name of the woman who eagerly gave me around 1.5 hours of her time.
This woman's salary was a fabulous use of our tax dollars. She was VERY highly informed, and permitted me to completely "suss-out" what was known about the state of BRW supply, laws governing importation into the USA and any other country that I could name, the F&W's projected estimate of future state of the importation laws, the exact nature of all world-wide treaties, laws etc etc ad nauseum. As seen thru the eyes of the U.S Fish & Wildlife Service....the governing agency as regards such matters.
They are the best in the world. Not perfect, but the best. Any debate on that? Check out the "competition" internationally. It is largely absent. Comments welcome!
This wonderful lady was exhaustive in the detail of her responces...I actually experienced "information overload" at around 90 minutes into the conversation, and I called the conversation to a halt. She was willing to talk all afternoon....and it was real, factual content, and the projections did seem to make sense indeed. A total absence of "fluff and propoganda".
And you should understand that, while I champion the preservation of natural resources, I am in NO WAY any sort "tree hugging liberal". In fact I am fairly conservative in some ways. Who would have "thunk it?"
In the largest sense my first question to her was this (remember that this was some time ago) "I am losing sales by not being willing to use this BRW wood, yet I am exposed to numerous sources for it. Are these firms selling wood that complies with the international and USA laws?"
It took quite some time for her to explain why her answer was "We do not know for sure".
A complication was.....the sometimes expert counterfieting of the export/import documentation.
Many "busts" had occurred due to sloppy counterfeiting of the paperwork..resulting in one (of many)spectacular bust of many dozens of tons of BRW on just one container vessel! Dozens of tons.....
"Well then, how does ANY of this BRW pass your (US F&W) inspection and be judged fit for importation?"
Her answer was long and involved...very detailed...too much to post here..I will have to paraphrase...these are not her exact words...but it is an accurate summation, I believe..
"Mr. McInturff, you need to understand that the state of Brazilian Rosewood, as regards it's legal importation into the USA, is very important to us, as is the importation of any restricted material. But, you must understand that, like any governmental agency, our available budget may seem big to you...and to all of our citizens...but it is actually pretty limited.
"We simply do not have enough money available to pay especial attention to Brazilian Rosewood. We do the best that we can to inspect the documentation...and if it appears to be legitimate upon inspection, it is allowed to be imported.
"But, you should be aware that all of us here at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service feel the pressure of not having nearly enough staff at hand.
"You have made your way here to me...I apologise for the wait...and I am indeed the most knowledgable person in this particular area....but, having said that, I have to say that I, like all of us, wear 'many hats' and to be honest, the inspection of BRW and the enforcement of importation laws of that particular material....and to do it correctly...is simply beyond what we can realistically do.
She went on.....
" At this time,much of that wood is being shipped via Spain. We have turned away many shipments of BRW that had papers from there."
I asked many more questions, and she gave good answers.
I was losing alot of money... at that time, some dozens of sales per year...not insignificant...I needed to know...
Q) Can I purchase "approved and legal" Brazilian Rosewood from these USA vendors, and in clear concience build guitars with it, knowing...TRULY KNOWING.... that the wood is TRULY legal, going all the way back to the cutting in the parent country?
A) "I hesistate to give you a blanket 'NO', even tho I am tempted to do so. I cannot, as a government official, tell you that the wood that has passed through our agency and which has been approved for importation has been approved incorrectly. I cannot say that.
"From a legal standpoint, anything that has been approved by us is legally marketable.... to sell, and to possess. Period. Anything that has been approved for importation by the USF&W is completely legal.
"I will remind you of what I told you earlier in our conversation...we are not funded to the point that we can have any real focus on something such as BRW.
"We are pointed in the direction of potentially dangerous insect, fish, mollusk, other animals, and viably hazardous plant importation. Things that can thrive here in the USA and cause domestic environmental problems.
"Also there is the popularity factor. There has always been a priority to govern the importation of Lions, Tigers, great Apes, Monkeys, and the like.
"Again, there has been a swarm of counterfeited Brazilian Rosewood documentation...some of which we catch, and much that we do not.
Q) It sounds like I should not be buying the BRW wood. Certified or not.
A) "That is entirely your choice, and you would not be breaking the law by purchasing certified wood. If you really want to feel ok about using it, maybe you should consider requesting copies of the importation documents...and even make them available to the end user.
Q) But, judging by what you have told me over the last hour....that documentation has a decent chance of not being factual.
I too, come in peace,
To quote an earlier post. I mean no critisism for my esteemed fellow builders. None whatsoever. Please remember that whilst you read, or type your responce. My fellow builders are my comrades-in-arrms. Some of them may well have different views than I am about to express. My post is for information only, altho I will, inevitably leave no doubt as to where I stand.
But I will also ask any truly interested party to investigate exactly as I have, and to file a report with us here. Please note that, and read on. There's a long post ahead. I will be amazed if anyone can wade thru it!
I really had to think about participating in this thread. I have a bit of a history regarding this subject...and the last time that I addressed it..year 2000 or therabouts.....I experienced "flaming" such as is hard to believe.
My life was threatened. I was a "troller who should be killed" It got worse. Three individuals outlined exactly how they thought I should be murdered. These were phone messages. The negative emails were not as notable.
All in the name of my favorite wood...Brazilian Rosewood.
From the mid 1990's thru the early 2000's, I lost NUMEROUS sales due to the fact that I would not consider using BRW....to me it was easy...BRW had been an "Endangered Species" for years; so, I assumed that I was not "supposed" to use it. But maybe once every 4-6 weeks, one wood supplier or another would email or call, saying "hey, I have great BRW, do you want to buy some?"
I would always answer somewhat along the lines of "Thanks so much for calling/emailing, but I understand that BRW is on the Endangered Species list, so, I should not be using it...right?" I never recieved a convincing reply.
At that time.... not one of those wood brokers would supply me with photostats of the importation documentation that I could send to US Fish and Wildlife Service for verification. Nothing on thier letterhead stating that the wood was harvested and imported in an unmistakably lawful way. Nothing on their letterhead saying how old the wood was, etc. Nothing.
I wonder if that has changed. Maybe one of the builders could scan and post a recent example of such a statement? Maybe, one of you will have better luck.
But finally, I got so sick of saying "NO" to folks...after all, this BRW wood was in demand, and here I was refusing to use it...based upon my really limited knowledge. I was losing a notable number of sales by saying "no". It was BAD BUSINESS PRACTISE to keep saying "no" without true information from THE source.... an answer from those who know...the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, main office, Washington D.C.
Getting the number for F&W in DC was easy. I called it, and as I recall, I was put-on-hold quite a few times until I had waded-my-way to the utmost responsible party...the person closest to the BRW situation that our government has to offer (at least at that time).
If you phone US F&W regarding the staus of BRW, please ask to speak with the person that is regarded as being "most expert" on that subject...otherwise, you may get easy answers, "the company line" etc etc....get The Expert!
The person that I eventually spoke to was, simply, great. Prior to posting this, I endeavored to find my old notes on the subject, but to no avail. Thus, I cannot give you all the name of the woman who eagerly gave me around 1.5 hours of her time.
This woman's salary was a fabulous use of our tax dollars. She was VERY highly informed, and permitted me to completely "suss-out" what was known about the state of BRW supply, laws governing importation into the USA and any other country that I could name, the F&W's projected estimate of future state of the importation laws, the exact nature of all world-wide treaties, laws etc etc ad nauseum. As seen thru the eyes of the U.S Fish & Wildlife Service....the governing agency as regards such matters.
They are the best in the world. Not perfect, but the best. Any debate on that? Check out the "competition" internationally. It is largely absent. Comments welcome!
This wonderful lady was exhaustive in the detail of her responces...I actually experienced "information overload" at around 90 minutes into the conversation, and I called the conversation to a halt. She was willing to talk all afternoon....and it was real, factual content, and the projections did seem to make sense indeed. A total absence of "fluff and propoganda".
And you should understand that, while I champion the preservation of natural resources, I am in NO WAY any sort "tree hugging liberal". In fact I am fairly conservative in some ways. Who would have "thunk it?"
In the largest sense my first question to her was this (remember that this was some time ago) "I am losing sales by not being willing to use this BRW wood, yet I am exposed to numerous sources for it. Are these firms selling wood that complies with the international and USA laws?"
It took quite some time for her to explain why her answer was "We do not know for sure".
A complication was.....the sometimes expert counterfieting of the export/import documentation.
Many "busts" had occurred due to sloppy counterfeiting of the paperwork..resulting in one (of many)spectacular bust of many dozens of tons of BRW on just one container vessel! Dozens of tons.....
"Well then, how does ANY of this BRW pass your (US F&W) inspection and be judged fit for importation?"
Her answer was long and involved...very detailed...too much to post here..I will have to paraphrase...these are not her exact words...but it is an accurate summation, I believe..
"Mr. McInturff, you need to understand that the state of Brazilian Rosewood, as regards it's legal importation into the USA, is very important to us, as is the importation of any restricted material. But, you must understand that, like any governmental agency, our available budget may seem big to you...and to all of our citizens...but it is actually pretty limited.
"We simply do not have enough money available to pay especial attention to Brazilian Rosewood. We do the best that we can to inspect the documentation...and if it appears to be legitimate upon inspection, it is allowed to be imported.
"But, you should be aware that all of us here at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service feel the pressure of not having nearly enough staff at hand.
"You have made your way here to me...I apologise for the wait...and I am indeed the most knowledgable person in this particular area....but, having said that, I have to say that I, like all of us, wear 'many hats' and to be honest, the inspection of BRW and the enforcement of importation laws of that particular material....and to do it correctly...is simply beyond what we can realistically do.
She went on.....
" At this time,much of that wood is being shipped via Spain. We have turned away many shipments of BRW that had papers from there."
I asked many more questions, and she gave good answers.
I was losing alot of money... at that time, some dozens of sales per year...not insignificant...I needed to know...
Q) Can I purchase "approved and legal" Brazilian Rosewood from these USA vendors, and in clear concience build guitars with it, knowing...TRULY KNOWING.... that the wood is TRULY legal, going all the way back to the cutting in the parent country?
A) "I hesistate to give you a blanket 'NO', even tho I am tempted to do so. I cannot, as a government official, tell you that the wood that has passed through our agency and which has been approved for importation has been approved incorrectly. I cannot say that.
"From a legal standpoint, anything that has been approved by us is legally marketable.... to sell, and to possess. Period. Anything that has been approved for importation by the USF&W is completely legal.
"I will remind you of what I told you earlier in our conversation...we are not funded to the point that we can have any real focus on something such as BRW.
"We are pointed in the direction of potentially dangerous insect, fish, mollusk, other animals, and viably hazardous plant importation. Things that can thrive here in the USA and cause domestic environmental problems.
"Also there is the popularity factor. There has always been a priority to govern the importation of Lions, Tigers, great Apes, Monkeys, and the like.
"Again, there has been a swarm of counterfeited Brazilian Rosewood documentation...some of which we catch, and much that we do not.
Q) It sounds like I should not be buying the BRW wood. Certified or not.
A) "That is entirely your choice, and you would not be breaking the law by purchasing certified wood. If you really want to feel ok about using it, maybe you should consider requesting copies of the importation documents...and even make them available to the end user.
Q) But, judging by what you have told me over the last hour....that documentation has a decent chance of not being factual.
