MIDI controller questions

[qythium]

Hi everybody, I'm thinking of getting a keyboard for my birthday. I'll probably be using it connected to my computer most of the time, so I guess a midi controller is what I need. I'm also completely new to this, and would like a bit of advice concerning the following questions.

After researching around for a bit, I'm quite set on the M-Audio Axiom 61 which looks like it offers lots of features for my budget of S$300-500.

So I went down to Sinamex and got a few surprises there. The salesperson said that if I wanted to do multi-track recording (which I definitely do) I'd have to get an external firewire midi interface, namely the M-audio Firewire Solo in order to avoid latency. It would also set me back by S$345.
Edit: I meant audio interface, not midi.

The thing is, my laptop is a 3rd gen Macbook Pro, and I assumed that it came with a good sound card that would be capable of handling these things. But no, the salesperson said, there is no such thing as a computer sound card which can do that. Naturally it sounded like a sales pitch and I'm suspicious of whether this is true, especially since i can't find much evidence of it on the web (or is it simply taken for granted?)

So as an alternative he pointed out the M-Audio Prokeys Sono 61 (S$695) and 88 (S$795) which, being synths, had the interfaces built into them. However, as I said, I would be using it with the computer most of the time, so I wouldn't need built-in sounds and all that stuff. But it would be a welcome option. Besides, they were lacking in some things that the Axiom had, like the knobs and sliders and drum pads, and also aftertouch capability.

Which brings me to my next point-- how important exactly is aftertouch? From what i've seen, very few middle-end (less than $1000) keyboards support it, but it seems to be a widely hailed feature when they do. I'm going to use my keyboard for doing soundtracks mainly, strings and piano and stuff, so expression is very important. But is aftertouch that awesome or can it be sacrificed in favour of cheaper models or ones with built-in interface and sounds? (Also, is the aftertouch on the Axiom polyphonic? It doesn't say anywhere.)

Lastly, the Axiom costs S$580 at Sinamex. But on this website,

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Axiom61/

as well as others, like midi-store.com, it goes for a base price of US$299 which, according to the current conversion rate, translates to S$430, a full $130 cheaper. Of course the salesperson at Sinamex took the stance of saying that, after you factored in shipping costs, GST, etc., plus the risk that there's no local warranty, its actually more worth it to buy from them.

I am a complete newbie about buying things online. In fact this will be my very first time, if I do. The website won't display shipping costs to Singapore until I complete the transaction, then apparently someone will call me up and discuss about it. Does anyone know the approx. price of shipping a 11.7 lbs keyboard to Singapore? Also there's this really murky part about the warranty which nobody seems to know about. If it arrives defective, can I send it back for exchange? Through whom? Do I have to pay for the shipping costs again? If it goes bad within a year (which is what Sinamex offers, plus telephone support) how do I get it repaired? Does this apply here? And how is GST on foreign imported goods handled?


Sorry for the many questions, I just want to clarify all my doubts. And if you've got a better 61+ key controller/synth to recommend within my budget don't hesitate

Thanks in advance.

 

[smurfpiss]

If you are going to record audio signals you will most definitely need an external sound card/audio interface that is meant for recording applications.

The ones that are default in most computers are used for playback applications only, resulting in latency and perhaps more sampling errors with the recorded audio.

Moreover with an audio interface you have big flexibility with more varied inputs, most will have mic preamps to boost your mic signals to unity as well.

 

[Cheez]

I think there's some misunderstanding. M-audio firewire solo is an audio interface, not a midi interface.

Next, latency may be a problem. I'm not a Mac user, so I can't vouch. I do know that Macs uses AU instead of ASIO/MME etc drivers. For PC, built-in cards' latency is greatly improved by installing ASIO drivers - free. My suggestion is to try out first. If latency is really bad, then go get an audio interface. I gather you would using softsamplers and softsynths. In that case, the limiting factor is really your hard-drive. You may need an external hard-drive to stream samples.

And if you are going to do mostly piano/strings stuff, you don't need after-touch. What you'll need is the mod wheel. For acoustic/symphonic music, the main control of the instruments (strings etc) is volume change, timbre change and articulation change. None of these are controlled very well using after-touch. The mod wheel, however, is indispensable. I write the same music as you. I would trade 5 knobs for a fader, but 10 knobs for 1 mod wheel. That's how important it is. Knobs are also one of the less useful controller in the genre you are writing for. After-touch and knobs are important for electronic/techno-type music.

I'm writing a thread (sticky) on choosing keyboards. It's still in progress. Hopefully when done, it will help you more.

 

[Cheez]

Oh, I assume you won't be doing any line or mic recording. You would probably be doing all multi-track internally using software. Right?

Another thing to consider. For softsamplers, to both record and playback at the same time, you'll may need an audio interface that's multi-client (which most built-in cards do not have). Suggestion is still to try out first before spending money.

Another thing. If you are using softsamplers, you may want to consider 88 keys. Piano playing itself demands it. With most softsamplers, you may need to do key-switching (press a key and the articulation changes from legato to marcato, for example). Key-switching are often mapped to the lower octaves of the keyboard. Anything less than 88 keys may mean re-mapping of your key-switches - which may be troublesome for beginners.

 

[qythium]

Thanks very much for the advice. About the audio interface, the problem is that it would cost too much for me to get a controller AND an audio interface. So if I really do need one I would rather spend the money on a synth like the prokeys sono which doesn't need one (right?)

So aftertouch isn't that important after all? But what if, for example, i'm recording a string section and I want to adjust the vibrato and the volume at the same time? The mod wheel would only be able to take care of one of these, wouldn't it? I also thought that the main use of aftertouch was to control vibrato

88 keys is probably too big to fit into my room/desk. I wouldn't mind learning how to remap the key-switching things, especially if the keyboard has convenient assignable buttons and stuff. Even when I'm playing the piano (currently studying for diploma) I don't usually go beyond a range of 5 octaves, and the octave shift buttons could be used in the exceptions. Perhaps 76 keys would be a good compromise...

Assuming then that I would like a 61-88 key controller with built in audio interface and not necessarily with aftertouch, what brand/model would you recommend? I would really like the Edirol PC-80 but it (unreasonably) does not support intel macs. Suzuki SP-67? Speakers not a necessity though. Headphones are good enough. Yamaha KX8? M-Audio Prokeys Sono? Nothing too expensive, less than, say, $800

Also, could someone enlighten me about the online purchasing issues (detailed in my first post)?

Thanks a lot

 

[lowjk]

Also, could someone enlighten me about the online purchasing issues (detailed in my first post)?

You have to factor in shipping costs and GST if your item is >S$400.

1) If you need an item not available here, purchase online.
2) If you can get a good discount, purchase online. example my focusrite liquid mix costs ~S$960 (inclusive of shipping and GST) as compared to $1308 buying it here from Team108.

For you M-Audio Axiom, from www.audiomidi.com
Cost = USD$249
Shipping = USD$162.23
Total = USD411.23 or Sin$592.7
With GST = Sin$634.2

You may get a cheaper shipping rate with vpost.com.sg but you still have to pay GST on the item and shipping if the total is more than S$400.

 

[Cheez]

Vibrato for strings is usually pre-programmed. That's the best effect. Strings in softsamplers come in non-vibrato and vibrato samples. In vibrato samples, the vibrato starts about a few seconds after the note plays, which is usually how it is played. And also, vibrato is played mostly in solo strings. Too thick vibrato in string sections can create undesired effects. So in short, you don't need to control it most of the time. Even if you need to, you still use the mod wheel. Or simply assign on of the faders to it (which I what I usually do). Aftertouch is too tricky to get the desired amount of effect (whether it is vibrato or other effects - orchestral style). The other thing to use is the expression pedal which can also be assigned to any of the parameters.

After-touch is one of those things that is the least used in orchestral sequencing.

May I ask, which library are you using (or intending to use)? I can give more suggestion with that info.

 

[qythium]

I'm probably going to use Logic Express with the Symphony Orchestra Jampack, both which I can borrow from my friends. And of course whatever software that comes with the instrument itself (Ableton Live Lite for M-audio, Cubase LE for Yamaha, etc.)

Thanks for the helpful advice. Now that I know I won't need aftertouch, it broadens my range of choices considerably. What I really want is something like the M-audio Ozonic, except that it's discontinued now and only came with 37 keys anyway. Know of anything similar?

Do I really need 88 keys?? They seem awfully big and expensive, but I don't want to get 61 keys and then regret it later.

 

[qythium]

Happy New Year!

 

[ATW10C]

Does anyone know the approx. price of shipping a 11.7 lbs keyboard to Singapore? Also there's this really murky part about the warranty which nobody seems to know about. If it arrives defective, can I send it back for exchange? Through whom? Do I have to pay for the shipping costs again? If it goes bad within a year (which is what Sinamex offers, plus telephone support) how do I get it repaired? Does this apply here? And how is GST on foreign imported goods handled?


Sorry for the many questions, I just want to clarify all my doubts. And if you've got a better 61+ key controller/synth to recommend within my budget don't hesitate

Thanks in advance.

If its from the US and u use VPOST, its S$9 per 2.2 pounds/1kg with an overhead charge of $18 I think. Then u also have to factor within US delivery cost. So the extra S$130 maybe quite reasonable and be better to get local. Do the full calculation and compare. I suspect with only a $130 difference from local price and the US price (without delivery cost), it be better in the end to get it locally in this case.

 

[Cheez]

qythium, the number of keys depend on the music you make. I'm not familiar with Garageband's Jam Packs (how the articulations are triggered and the programmed controls). If piano is heavily used, geting 61 keys will of course limit the playing range of piano. If you are a pianist, you should really consider 88 weighted. However, if you are not piano trained, then 76 keys may be enough.

M-audio has various 76/88 keys controllers that are relatively low cost.

 

[piano_ex]

So I went down to Sinamex and got a few surprises there. The salesperson said that if I wanted to do multi-track recording (which I definitely do) I'd have to get an external firewire midi interface, namely the M-audio Firewire Solo in order to avoid latency. It would also set me back by S$345.

The thing is, my laptop is a 3rd gen Macbook Pro, and I assumed that it came with a good sound card that would be capable of handling these things. But no, the salesperson said, there is no such thing as a computer sound card which can do that. Naturally it sounded like a sales pitch and I'm suspicious of whether this is true, especially since i can't find much evidence of it on the web (or is it simply taken for granted?)

Can I clarify with you, Do you really want to do a multi-track recording? And do you understand what it means by multi-track recording? Or do you confused it with Multi-track MIDI Recording?

If it's really Multi-track recording, meaning recording multiple audio track at one go, there is NO internal laptop soundcard that is designed to do that. And the people at sinamex, through my experience with them, they're very helpful and truthful. When they don't give you lower price, they don't though. But they are really sincere in helping and giving their expertise. They always let me hang around trying gears without saying anything. =)

@ cheez: Mac, usually don't have any problem with latency, unless the external audio interface itself has a problem. =) (btw, ur avatar makes me wipe my screen several times before i realize it's ur avatar =P )

 

[qythium]

Um, the guy there called it something of that sort, what he meant was that if I already had a few tracks up there and tried to record another one layered on top of them using the midi keyboard and listening to the sound for reference, it would record out of sync. I really don't think i'll be using more than one recording device at a time.

 

[Cheez]

If you are using entirely midi, piano_ex is right. All your tracks will be midi. Then you render them into audio file at the end into a stereo track (1 audio track). So, you won't really be using multiple audio tracks.

However, to confuse you, even with multiple midi tracks, we sometimes still use multiple audio tracks. I do that - to create perception of depth by throwing different instruments into different distance (as when recorded on stage) using different levels of reverb, then combine them all together again with a general reverb. I don't know about garageband, but with most of other orchestral libraries, they are already recorded with ambience, so my practice may be becoming a thing of the past. For general use, you don't really need multiple audio tracks.

So you write using entirely midi tracks. Your tracks will NOT be out of sync.

 

[kongwee]

Sinamex sell me Firewire Solo with digital in not working. At that time, I want an Alesis io2, they persuade me to get M-Audio. Firewire Solo got a lot of hiss and pop on my iMac using Logic Studio. I can overcome that. But I don't really like Firewire Solo.

 

[qythium]

Ok, you managed to confuse me. I understand that most DAWs have an option to 'lock down' a midi track or the entire project, pre-rendering it into a single audio track instead of doing it real-time, and making it uneditable. Is this what you're referring to? Must I do this if I want to use my internal sound card?

Also, I would be using audio tracks too, not only midi. For example sound effects, loops, or recording using microphone (but not simultaneously with the keyboard). I think I'll get a controller first and see how it goes.

Anyway it seems that I won't be getting the keyboard until this June/July. Maybe there will be newer models by that time. If I have any more questions then, I'll post it on this forum.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Cheez]

Once you render or merge your tracks into audio, you can't edit the notes like in midi. Forget what I said. That technique is probably a dying one as samples sampled with ambience nowadays.

If you are really on a tight budget, then go ahead with what you have first. When you start doing multiple audio tracks and/or encounter latency or problems, then consider getting an audio interface. That way, you test you system to the max before jumping in to spend money before you need the hardware.