lack of keyboardists???

darkclaw3000

New member
Is it me or is there like a lack of keyboardists around? maybe i'm asking the wrong question, coz i don't see much hard rock/ heavy metal keyboardists here.

where are the budding Jon Lords? Rick Wakemans? Jordan Rudess??
keyboardists who love to shred on their keyboards just like the guitarists do?

my band's lookin to audition these rare individuals but there seem to be a lack of it. especially in the genre.

few songs in mind that need a good keyboardist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6er0wKcDCg keys n guitars on intro. amazing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHCdCbTxypU or the ever popular gates of babylon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh0iihjANPc highway star?? or anything by deep purple at all?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDsvZGM1vD8 anyone playin like this??

im probably living in a cave if there's really a lot out there.
if anyone knows keyboardists who do all this stuffs, pls, PM me.
or point me to them n i will introduce myself.
 
there's no lack of keyboardist , there's just very few helpful keyboardist. Well I guess if you offer good money that's a diff thing

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there's no lack of keyboardist , there's just very few helpful keyboardist. Well I guess if you offer good money that's a diff thing
 
I don't know much about keyboardist and stuff. All I know is...in an amateur band setting (especially the teens here), the one who usually plays the keyboard is the only female member of the band. Maybe the band needs a token female? Maybe these kids think playing the keyboard is not cool or "manly" enough? Maybe she's the girlfriend of the band leader? But most likely she's the only one who knows how to play the keyboard...because her mommy and daddy let her learned the piano when she was little!

:D
 
thats usually the case. u dont see many guys picking up the keyboards to shred on it. they go for the guitar coz its way cooler. and yes almost all the keyboardists ive played with starts from the parents. they wanted them to play the piano. n usually all girls. n if there's finally boys that i see on the keyboards, they not up to standard as the girls. sorry to the male keyboardists out there but MOST i see just play simple chords, n nvr go more then the norm.
 
I think you're stereotyping the keyboardists. We male keyboardists are out there. Just that we have lots of other things to do other than jamming and gigging. Most of the male keyboardists I know play more than chords.

It's true that good keyboardists usually (not always) start younger at the piano to learn the techniques. I know of quite a few people (guys by the way) who start later in life without learning classical piano and play pretty good jazz and pop piano (that goes beyond playing "chords"). What most people call "shredding" on the keyboard depends on a lot of finger techniques that grow from classical music playing - after a certain age, picking up the technique is more difficult (albeit not impossible, just a lot more work). Guitar is way easier to pick up, hence I believe why we see more guitarists than keyboardists in general. Took me years to finish ABRSM exams, and quite some time to mature in improvisation on the keyboard. Took me less than 1 year to pick up the guitar (started when I was in the Army) and less than 2 years to play something like Cavatina (before I left the Army). To avoid stereotyping, I must add that classical guitar probably takes just the same amount of time to learn as classical piano.

The concept of being "cooler" is irrelevant to the choice of a musical instrument. On stage, it's all about performance and showmanship (which gives the impression of "coolness"). It doesn't matter what instrument it is - poor showmanship makes the player appear "dull"; good showmanship makes the person appear "cool".
 
'What most people call "shredding" on the keyboard depends on a lot of finger techniques that grow from classical music playing'

-Not really,do you see shredders of electric guitar have firm foundations in classical music? I can tell you only a small %.


"Guitar is way easier to pick up, hence I believe why we see more guitarists than keyboardists in general"

- You must specify what type of Guitar is way easier to pick up.Are you refering to three chords baby strumming or Jazz Guitar?
- You forgot that on average Guitars are cheaper than keyboards. And can a rock band look spectacular with one standing vocalist and four members (drummer included) sitting down?


'Took me years to finish ABRSM exams, and quite some time to mature in improvisation on the keyboard. Took me less than 1 year to pick up the guitar (started when I was in the Army) and less than 2 years to play something like Cavatina (before I left the Army)."

- Well,that just goes to show that you are slow in obtaining and understanding Theoretical knowledge as well as practical.I personally know musicians who skipped grades and acheive grade 8 before they went into Army.
- Do you suppose guitar mastery can be achieved within 2 years? oh,did you add what type of vacation u did after BMT? for all we know,you might be on a vacation that does nothing physically and mentally demanding within that 2 years.
 
I knew this is going to strike a bad chord! (no pun intended!). Ok. Let's go point by point.

My point is in response to the thread starter why there are fewer keyboard so-called "shredders" out there than guitarists, and why there are seemingly more female keyboardists than male gigging. Reasons:

1. I'm trying to point out that it's nothing to do with the "coolness" of playing an instrument.
2. A point you made is extremely valid - the cost of the instrument. For a person who starts off on an instrument, it's way cheaper to get a guitar than a keyboard. But once a person progresses, a good guitar doesn't come cheap either. Agree?
3. This is probably the point of contention, which I'll apologize if my previous post seem derogatory (about less skills required to acquire guitar skills than keyboards). It's not meant to demean guitarists, since I play the guitar as well. We do have to compare apples with apples, which I may not have done properly.

(i) Classical instruments - basically all comparable in that field.
(ii) Same for jazz
(iii) Pop/Contemporary/metal/other similar genre - this is where I think the difference lies. It may (note the italics - not certainly, but may, which means I may be wrong :) ) be easier to so-call "shred" on the guitar than the keyboard because the latter certainly has benefits with classical background. That goes to point (i) which basically means it takes a longer time to acquire the necessary technique. This is in no way trying to say that the hard work put by guitarists is less. I believe any musicians who acquire a certain level needs to put in the same kind of effort. But one's finger muscles stiffen at a certain age which makes keyboard playing more difficult (which means more difficulty to achieve a certain level). This is trying to answer the question why we see less keyboardists than guitarists. Again, I may be wrong...it's a hypothesis (to generate discussion).

Well,that just goes to show that you are slow in obtaining and understanding Theoretical knowledge as well as practical.I personally know musicians who skipped grades and acheive grade 8 before they went into Army.

Ok. This is getting personal, but that's ok. No offense taken here. I've completed my ABRSM in secondary school and started teaching ABRSM theory to classes of students in Sec 2. I started arrangement of music around the same time, and orchestration a little later (JC). The point is that I started at 3-4 years old - which basically means it takes a long time. That's all. I'm not in anyway saying I'm great or good - the only point is here is the length of time.

I also did not say "guitar mastery in 2 years". I don't think I used those words. Mastery in any instrument takes a lifetime. I'm certainly won't call myself a master in keyboard or guitar or the other instruments I play.

Looks like I may generate more negative feelings! So I better say this first: I also play the guitar, so I'm not putting down guitarists. I'm also not saying that guitarists needs less effort to achieve a certain level. I believe all needs hard work. My point is the time it takes to achieve it, which is different from effort. And all this is in response to the question why we see less keyboardists than guitarists.

There are many other reasons I believe, which is open to further discussion. Ok. Better shut up now before I step on more toes...
 
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I do agree that theres a serious lack of keyboardists out there. And the ones that we do see seem confined to a couple of genres. For example, my Rock and Electronica band is having a damn hard time finding an open minded keyboardist who is able to experiment with "unconventional" genres like trance and dubstep where its not so much the technical difficulty of shredding, but the ability to reverse engineer sounds they hear on a dj track and reproduce it through patches and live sound tweaking (i loaned our old keyboardist an overdrive pedal to run her keyboard through and it totally got the super saturated sound we were looking for).

Anyway, pardon me for hijacking this thread but my band is also looking for a keyboardist =)
if anyone out there would like to give modern dance rock a try, do pm me and we'll have a chat! dont need shredding skilz, just need rhythm and soul. and several thousand dollars of electronic equipment as an added bonus, but not necessary, haha.


Thanks Guys!!
 
Suggestion for various sub-genres of electronic dance music (dubstep, trance, electro house, new wave, break beat, electropop, synthpop, electro-industrial, technopop etc), DJs actually do this much better than a standard keyboardist. Most will be using arpeggiators, various syncopation (that's more easily achieved via programming rather than actual playing individual notes), adding everything together with playing around with oscillators etc. The skill-set is actually quite different. It takes someone with a good sense of rhythm and effects and what they want to get out of it. I think a person who fits this should be more inclined towards being a "sound designer" rather than a "keyboardist".

Theshadow, I think you hit the nail on the head by saying you need someone with "rhythm and soul"! To me, that's a good sound designer. I'm always amazed at what some really good DJs can do! With the right tools - goodness, amazing soundscapes are produced! So I guess you should be looking for someone with that kind of skill-set (sound designing) rather than just a keyboardist. You're right - indeed not many keyboardists can do that really well!
 
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I’ve actually had two musical educations. The first one was your standard Grade 8 ABRSM education. Classical music is very good for teaching you the basics of music, regardless of whether you are a classical music kind of guy (which I am not).

Second one is listening to music. 1991, as you know, was one of the most important years in rock music, because that was when alternative music started getting popular. So it was a very very exciting time to be discovering pop music. It was one of three great eras of pop (the other two being the 60s and around 1977, the punk era), so I was fortunate to be a teenager around that time.
And one of the best things about going into this second education after having had the first is that I could hear just about everything in the song: what the guitars were doing, what the bass, the drums were doing. Everything could then be reverse engineered. So not only is there, “I like this / that”, but I could tell how they did it.

I listened to almost everything in pop music and jazz and found out what I liked and didn’t like - forming your own opinion on music is one of the most important aspects of education. I hung out in bookstores (remember – no internet during those days) and read music reviews, which are very useful for throwing up questions about how and what to think about music. An analogy here is with engineering degrees: in undergraduate they teach you the more practical stuff, and make sure you know how to do things. In postgraduate, you read papers and think about new ideas.

A classical education will not teach you anything about rap, but you have to think about what’s so great about it. It will help you understand jazz, except the swing part. If you can understand jazz drumming, you can definitely appreciate hiphop. Most difficult skill to master: songwriting. You can teach music theory, you can teach playing, but songwriting is a black art. Some songs sound “nice” but they get boring after a while. Some songs sound like a mess on first listen, but they turn out to be masterpieces. Some great songs use only 2 or 3 chords, the less great songs will sound simplistic. The great ones just sound great. Other great songs use plenty of chords, but many songs that use plenty of chords just sound complicated and cluttered and unmeaningful. Mastering songwriting involves thinking through all these issues.

Regarding the issue of Catavina, I don’t play the guitar. I will listen to it and play it on the piano, and it will take me around 1-2 hours to work it all out. Instead of going through the nitty gritties, I will be thinking about why the chords work so well, and how somebody can write a song which actually can introduce new musical ideas every line without ever having to repeat itself. I will think about how economical the melody is: notice, that the first line of Catavina goes through so many chord changes, but the melody has only C, D and E in it. Being able to come up with such interesting features is an indication of good songwriting.

There is also the issue of words in music, but I leave that as a separate issue. Taking an “O” or “A” levels in literature will prepare you for this, even though poetry is not exactly the same as writing lyrics.

What you get from this second sort of education is: you start to understand what composing, producing and arranging is supposed to do. Even if I don’t know how to do production, I would say I have an idea what I want.

When I was young I was told that you had to master an instrument before you did composing. That’s not true. Being merely competent at your instrument is good enough. David Bowie gets people to play for him. James Brown just directs his band. Ian Brown cannot sing, and he cannot play instruments. Neither Paul McCartney nor John Lennon are the master guitarist in the band: George Harrison is. I’ve heard people being called “bedroom musicians” in a derogatory sense. Brian Wilson is the ultimate bedroom musician. He even wrote a song called “In My Room”.

So the second education is in a way actually quite independent of the first. When you go to a music school, typically they will give you the first education. The second one, I don’t know if there are people teaching it, or if you have to learn it yourself. To me it is as important, if not as important as the first. Fortunately once you have a good pair of ears and a good record collection, that's all you need.

Regarding the issue that guitarists are more photogenic: unfortunately this is true. Even when you are playing keyboards, a lot of the time, you just push a button and it plays what you have performed. One extreme example was Orb performing on the “Top of the Pops”. They knew that watching people play keyboards is not very exciting. It’s not rock music where you can strike sexy macho poses. It’s not jazz where you can just sit and watch the drummer all the time. So they just played the music in the background and had two people playing chess. It is still great art all the same because it is a great artistic statement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brf4eayySV4

Kraftwerk just adopted this stage persona that they were all robots, so they wouldn't have to do anything. But the issue is the same.
 
Some good points there. However, I will say that the problem with classical teaching is with the teachers. It's how it was taught and in some extent, what exactly was taught. I find application of harmony in theory almost in every aspect of music - from playing to improvisation to composition. Lots of people tell me it's too theoretical and boring. I find it almost indispensable. Lots of people also tell me how limiting they are to composition; I actually find it increase creativity. I guess in the end is how it's applied. Must music teacher never teach application. It's just about passing exams - which is a real waste. It's like my son asking me, "How does all this Maths work in real life?" That was a good question. They were taught Maths and given Maths problems. Many of the problems don't seem to be real enough to them. Same for music - we lack teachers who teach real application. So they killed music education and theory.

Today I was sitting with my oldest on the piano while he's practicing for his piano exams. I was quite appalled at what the piano teacher taught (or rather didn't teach). She told him, "Practice it 50 times." Goodness. How's that going to help? So I analysed one of the pieces and got told him to play the left hand like how a cellist would play it. And the right hand how a violinist would play. The entire phrasing and interpretation of the piece changed. The effect was transformational. (just to add one point - it's near impossible for a parent to teach a child piano, at least for me - parents, at least me, tend to be too impatient and critical which I fear may kill interest...).

I like what you say about listening as music education. I would add "listening and analysing". That's seldom taught unless one goes through music elective in school (which I was fortunate to have gone through). It doesn't have to be separate from the traditional learning of music. It's just that we don't have enough teachers who teach it to students to appreciate it at that level.
 
That’s very interesting. I was very fortunate, during my ABRSM days to have had a musical education where people taught you how to compose, so I actually wrote my first song at 8. Of course I can’t really say I wrote it because the teacher edited it so much in order to have a finished product by the end of the course, but at least it forced me to think, so thereafter all the stuff I hear is from the perspective of a composer, ie asking themselves the questions that composers ask themselves.

So what I liked about it is that they point out little features to you like, everything resolves to the tonic in the end – well most of the time. Sometimes you have the fade out. What is a motif and how to use it. How you have to introduce an idea, and develop it fully before going on to the next. Walking bassline, etc. What you said about harmony is true but songwriting is more than just understanding harmony.

Writing a song is like writing a proof in mathematics. Every part must make sense. A proof shows you the relationship between mathematical ideas, and a good song shows you relationships between musical ideas. A good proof is an elegant proof: a good melody is an elegant melody. Learning harmony is like your “A” level syllabus. Being good at maths in “A” levels and being a good mathematician are different things, and there are math professors who forget basic stuff like chain rule. But you should know “A” level maths before you go on to proving theorems.

It’s interesting what you said about classical music teachers. I think the tradition is that most musicians would be peons: they would either be soloists, in which case they’d be playing other peoples’ pieces most of the time, or they’d be a member of the orchestra, receiving instructions from the conductor. Music has changed so much since then: if you gave anybody a synth, everybody becomes an orchestra conductor. Maybe musical education hasn’t evolved enough to reflect this.

Maybe there’s no certification in Singapore for this type of music education, so nobody teaches music this way. Maybe the way that classical music is taught, there is a bias towards the “performer” type of musician rather than the “conductor” type of musician.
 
Hey centralcatchment, you are touching on an extremely important topic (somewhat different from this thread). There's so much more to talk about. Would you like to start a new thread on this topic on songwriting/music writing? Would like more people to chip into what I see as a very important discussion along the line of music education, growing in music/song writing etc.

Would like to write more, but don't want to hijack the thread starter! :)
 
Actually I think I'll stop here for now, and we're probably hijacking this thread.

But since you mentioned: I'm thinking of writing stuff about songwriting. I'm toying with the idea of not just a thread but a blog. If it happens I'll let you know.
 
Why not use SOFT as a platform for that? You get more people to chip in with more interactions. Blog is a one way thing. Good for sharing your thoughts, but forum is a good way for more discussions.

Or start your blog but nevertheless, start a discussion on it anyway in SOFT (maybe link to your blog?).
 
hey guys i dont mind man hahaha. its a good discussion anyway. n i think i will hijack my own thread since its already on the topic, we should bring in more songwriters into the forum. like u have a section for guitars, bass, etc, y not a section especially for the other works of a band. songwriters, arrangers, composers, sound engineer (live and studio), managers, agents, tour managers. i mean really the works. so that we can all find one another easily?

coz sometimes i browse here trying to find a songwriter thats willing to write songs, sell em, or go for royalties. make some money for themselves. haha i donno.

oh yeah. KEYBOARDISTS!!? WHERE AREEEEEE YOUUUUUUUUUU
 
oh i cant edit my posts. wanted to add, the stuffs outside of music too. but regarding the band. photographers, cd/album designers, merch sellers or tshirt printers.. promoters n stuffs..
 
Is it me or is there like a lack of keyboardists around? maybe i'm asking the wrong question, coz i don't see much hard rock/ heavy metal keyboardists here.

where are the budding Jon Lords? Rick Wakemans? Jordan Rudess??
keyboardists who love to shred on their keyboards just like the guitarists do?

my band's lookin to audition these rare individuals but there seem to be a lack of it. especially in the genre.

few songs in mind that need a good keyboardist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6er0wKcDCg keys n guitars on intro. amazing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHCdCbTxypU or the ever popular gates of babylon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh0iihjANPc highway star?? or anything by deep purple at all?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDsvZGM1vD8 anyone playin like this??

im probably living in a cave if there's really a lot out there.
if anyone knows keyboardists who do all this stuffs, pls, PM me.
or point me to them n i will introduce myself.

I'm keyboardist...
I know what you are looking for..
May I say there aren't keyboardist interested because there's no $$ to earn there.. where you are going.. most keyboardist can earn direct cash from doing commercial pop stuff.. that's why they ain't interested to go into rock band..
Unless it is jazz, where they can enjoy a challenge..
I've played with rock bands before.. and I can tell you the experience is excruciatingly painful.. especially when they start to play songs that have really little keyboard parts.. I end up looking like a fool standing there doing nothing..
 
Not doing nothing, parablue74. What would happen to the songs without pads that has one sustained chord lasting 8 bars? :)
 
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