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Thread: Application of Inversions

  1. #11

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    I have no grape, I mean grade.:mrgreen:

    It is good to be strong in theory in pop or classical. But when come to jazz, a lot of rule can be broken. "Gut feel" is very important in jazz.
    Last edited by kongwee; 01-10-09 at 12:01 AM.

  2. #12

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    Not true. Jazz follows rules all the time. There's also jazz theory. Jazz that doesn't follow rules is simply "random playing".

    As a rule (pun not intended), rules can be broken only if you know the rules. There are rules to breaking rules!

    Oh, and one common misconception re: theory and rules. They do not in anyway decrease "feel". If anything, if applied properply, they promote creativity and open door to many possibilities!
    Last edited by Cheez; 01-10-09 at 08:47 AM.

  3. #13

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    There are two uses of the term 'inversion' when it comes to playing on the keys.

    There is the standard definition i.e. a note other than the root in the bass

    Or the definition used often by jazzers - in jazz terms, 'inversion' is often used to describe the voicing of a chord in the RH, irrespective of bass note.


    Putting inversions into usage is simple - read up on voice leading. I'm assuming when Kongwee mentioned 'smoothing up' he meant voice leading.

  4. #14

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    PS Kongwee: Cheez is very much correct in his comments RE jazz.

    Yes, rules in any style can be broken, but the old adage 'you have to know the rules to break them' is certainly very true.

    But breaking rules purely for the sake of it doesn't mean your music will, by default, have 'more feeling', just as opening your mouth and making noises doesn't mean you are expressing yourself in a 'gut feeling' manner because language has suppressed your ability to express yourself. Do you see the rules of language as inhibiting? Or are they the very things that have given you the freedom to say what you want to say?

    What makes the 'rules of music' any different? Why aren't the rules of theory/harmony viewed as liberating, rather than suppressing?

    And if by your definition 'gut feel' is important in jazz, then why isn't a 2 year old who thumps on the keys considered 'great jazz'? The 2 year old player will certainly be playing out of 'gut feeling', yes? And if you would say that this isn't 'jazz' as the kid doesn't understand that jazz has rules, then why is knowing some rules OK, but knowing others isn't?

    As an aside, it should also be remembered that jazz is an extension of classical harmony.

  5. #15

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    Hi,

    Thank you for all your good advices.

    Where can I find information on voice leading ?

    Thank you.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianomankris View Post
    PS Kongwee: Cheez is very much correct in his comments RE jazz.

    Yes, rules in any style can be broken, but the old adage 'you have to know the rules to break them' is certainly very true.

    But breaking rules purely for the sake of it doesn't mean your music will, by default, have 'more feeling', just as opening your mouth and making noises doesn't mean you are expressing yourself in a 'gut feeling' manner because language has suppressed your ability to express yourself. Do you see the rules of language as inhibiting? Or are they the very things that have given you the freedom to say what you want to say?

    What makes the 'rules of music' any different? Why aren't the rules of theory/harmony viewed as liberating, rather than suppressing?

    And if by your definition 'gut feel' is important in jazz, then why isn't a 2 year old who thumps on the keys considered 'great jazz'? The 2 year old player will certainly be playing out of 'gut feeling', yes? And if you would say that this isn't 'jazz' as the kid doesn't understand that jazz has rules, then why is knowing some rules OK, but knowing others isn't?

    As an aside, it should also be remembered that jazz is an extension of classical harmony.
    Dunno, I run through the recording of some mosaic artist. I saw the chords sheet and skeleton melody line. Super hard time reading the papers. A lot of coloured chords, they don't bother about the keys. They know what the song going to be like before hand. When they go for second and third take, the feel is alway different in every take. A lot of "extention" chords used, but the singer can sing in normal keys. A bit sharp or flat doesn't matter as long it blend. There can be 4 bar of alter chords, and sound very nice. In the recording recording studio, the jazz arranger direct you could sharp this and flat that. Those who train in pop and classical, know that is not"correct", but it is just sound nice. Maybe I should be in this way, the "feeling" is very important without he "gut". :mrgreen:

    However, the bass player will normally follow the rulz.
    Last edited by kongwee; 01-10-09 at 12:15 PM.

  7. #17

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    We use the chord charts all the time. Even though very few notes are indicated in them (for melody lines and to indicate certain beat/syncopation), they all still should be following rules. The choice of the voicings are heavily dependent on harmony. The improvisation may be different, but the rules still apply. It's just that application of theory is second nature and automatic. Those not trained in theory may not realise, but rules are still applied.

    This apply not just for piano. Even when I play the guitar, harmony is automatically applied. I play every week with friends. The piece may sound nice and we play the exact same chords, but a simple application by changing certain voicings in harmony make just that difference that's very audible to everybody.

    But we seem to be drifting into theory discussion again.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleora View Post
    Hi,

    Thank you for all your good advices.

    Where can I find information on voice leading ?

    Thank you.
    What I suggest is earlier is enough. Take a fake sheet and start from there. Just play accompaniment when music playing. Just play staccato in every chord change if you are not very proficient. Your right hand will stay within an octave. Normally I will pick C to C. It is alright to hit 4 or 5 semi tone up or down if the chord progression is gradually go that way. Almost of the time you will go downward. You could do it in every key too even in the range from C to C. That help to start a chord with different inversion. Like Abmin, I will start a second or third inversion depending on mood.

    To be honest, the first I play I keep doing root in chords. Until, I change instructor, she say I should not do that.

    If you do solo, the right hand will have different training. However, I alway feel it is good to do accompaniment before doing solo.

  9. #19

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    OK here's a very simple way of using inversions (bass inversions, I mean):

    Use them to create a smooth transition from chord to chord by having the least amount of movement in the bass line when changing chord.

    For example, C - F, the bass would normally go C - F. But if you want the smoothest sounding change, then make the bassline play C E then F.

    The E in the bass is an inversion of the C chord, and is the closest note to the F (only a semitone away), so the transition will be smoother.




    Kongwee - I don't understand most of your post due to your grammar (no offence). However, i'd say there is no such thing as 'incorrect' - if you know the rules, that is. It's more about intention. Prokofieff and Ravel both intentionally wrote 'wrong' notes in ther music. But they meant to, and they knew they were doing so.

  10. #20

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    sorry my bad!
    I never pass English!
    But I promise not to be ris low.
    I have an friend playing wrong note on piano. He can't get it off when finishing recording. A jazz arranger who in charge of the recording. He say it ok. The wrong note is sixth note of that chord. My friend play again in other studio. It cause a distrub to my friend who play pop and classical. But the jazz arranger take it easy.

    Other genre is bossa. Put sharp and flat of 9,11,13 all over place.

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