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Thread: Help with chords

  1. #31

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    Oh oh. I hope this thread doesn't end up like the "Do Singapore vocalists suck" thread.

  2. #32

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    even if its turn out like the vocalist thread, do you think its a bad thing??

    Perhaps you only see that its seem like trying to out do one another. But what i see, are different views of some depth.

    anyway, the people in the thread here aint your teenage next door angsty kinda people. I love reading their different views of such length and depth. Its good for me thinking process musically at times. I can only wish theres more.

    Playing music is not just playing, constant evolving ideas, conflicting thoughts give rise to something new. If everything is just plain "i love you, you love me, we are happy family" kinda, i also dont want to listen to those. Its plain ole boring...

    anyway, back to topic and more off topic talks!
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  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by widdly View Post
    Huh? I'm not trying to have an argument with you, I'm just presenting a different opinion. Why would you take it personally? Your recent comment was, to say the least, condescending . The role and importance of theory is, as Cheez rightly pointed out at the start of the thread, a controversial topic. The ideas I'm presenting are not unique or new. I suggest you read The Language of Music by Deryck Cooke or Emotion and Meaning in Music by Leonard Meyer if you have trouble following what I am saying.

    I know the books you mention. And I am following what you are saying fine. And i'm not going to be as rude to suggest some books you should read. And every counter I have given to your arguments you have dropped (i.e. the Ravel example, the untuned guitars example - pretty much everything you have mentioned so far) - you seem less interested in reasoning than you do in trying to come across as educated. To me you seem like a troll.

    From the onset your 'discussion' is flawed, as you are talking about subjective listening, which isn't the topic of discussion of this thread.

    The thread starter asked for help with theory, and you have been spouting forth about how theory can affect subjective listening to a piece of music, which isn't the nature of the thread.

    The thread starter wanted to learn some of the rules of harmony. Where is the help you have given him with this so far? And if you aren't helping the thread starter, then why the hell are you posting here?

    Do you have anything original or helpful to say, or do you just spout names/quotes/ideas of others? What help have you given here?

    Sorry Cheez, this guy is pissing me off with continuing down a line of discussion that has nothing to do with the thread.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by widdly View Post
    Here is a simple idea if you are fitting a melody to a chord progression.

    If you use a chord tone ( a note that occurs in the chord) for the LAST melody note before the chord changes, the melody tends to move with the chord changes.
    This is wrong and a false understanding of one of the most basic rules of classical harmony.

    It depends on which beat the final melodic note falls on within the bar on what the final melodic note of a bar should/could/can be.

    'Tends to move with the chord changes' is vague/obscure in meaning. You should be clearer in what you mean by this.
    Last edited by pianomankris; 20-06-09 at 09:42 AM.

  5. #35

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    Before that, how about first deciding which chord tone is best for 'moving along with the chord changes'? I would suggest emphasising the use of thirds and sevenths since these are the notes that essentially 'characterise' each chord.

    Hence if you are playing over a Cmaj7 chord, the chord tones to emphasise or target would be E and B.

    But if it is a triad, targeting the root note would then emphasise the move from one chord to another. Hence over a Cmaj triad, the root to target & emphasise would be C itself. If moving to a Gmaj triad, target/emphasise the G note. (not too sure about this so do advise accordingly !)

  6. #36

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    OK guys. Let's decide to focus back on the topic of discussion. Pianomankris, I think we'll find opposing thoughts to always be there. Sometimes, we just have to accept it. If a person has never eaten a piece of chocolate cake before, there's no point talking about how great it taste. There will always be people who will think that it taste bad without ever tasting it.

  7. #37

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    Chord progressions

    There aren't any rules whatsoever in music making as far as creative expression is concerned. However those who are trained in classical music would surely know that there are certain chords to avoid eg VII. A pure VII chord is almost regarded as a taboo. (Not VII from C7 but chord VII with reference to a tonic.)

    I wouldn't say that chord progressions are rules but rather, they are guidelines to me. Songwriters stick to them because they are familiar with it and they are easy to work with. Some of them are versatile and can accomodate permutations of vocal parts.

    The chord progression, I Vb VI V IV III II V, is almost a standard in some songs, especially mandopop.

    Indie rock songs like to use, I V VI IV. (Looped) E.g. Boys Like Girls - The great escape.

    Or maybe VI IV V I-Vb. (Looped)

    These are just your straightforward chords. Jazz and bossanova is loaded with modulation, suspended chords, and definitely diminished and augmented 7th 8th 9th etc.

    Listen to a wider genre of music and if you can, play by ear, or get your hands on a score and look at essentially, how the chords change.

    I hoped I helped, this is my virgin post!

  8. #38

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    Actually, the vii chord (or vii dim) is very commonly used. Even in harmony, vii b (1st inversion of vii chord) is extremely common. I use the vii dim chord all the time. One common usage is a passing chord progression to III chord (not iii, but major III; as in viidim - III - vi etc). Many other very uses as well!

  9. #39

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    Actually the diminished triad isn't as dissonant as one might assume if as already mentioned, it is used as a passing chord. Anyway if the dim triad doesn't fit, there's always the min7b5 to use instead, which sounds surprisingly melodic. To my ear at least.

    Since we're on the topic of swapping chords out for different ones, maybe i'll just touch briefly on diatonic chord subsitution and everyone else can add on?

    The chords in each diatonic key can essentially be categorised into 3 'families' - Tonic, Subdominant and Dominant.

    The primary function of each family is as follows:
    Tonic (Family of the I chord): To temporarily or permanently resolve a piece of music.
    Subdominant (Family of the IV chord): To move away from the I chord.
    Dominant (Family of the V chord): To move towards/resolve to the I chord.

    In any major key, the chords that belong to each family is as follows:
    Tonic: I, IIImi and VImi
    Subdominant: IV and IImi
    Dominant: V and VIIdim

    As such, i believe the chords in each family are perfectly substitutable for one another. So do try them out and have a listen!
    Last edited by futures; 20-06-09 at 09:28 PM.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheez View Post
    Actually, the vii chord (or vii dim) is very commonly used. Even in harmony, vii b (1st inversion of vii chord) is extremely common. I use the vii dim chord all the time. One common usage is a passing chord progression to III chord (not iii, but major III; as in viidim - III - vi etc). Many other very uses as well!
    I'm referring to a pure vii. Any examples? Vii sounds almost non-melodious to me. xD

    But I do appreciate Vii B and Vb.

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